Speaker 1: 0:06

I'm super excited to have you on this show today because you have a lot of experience with coaching. You spent thousands of hours coaching clients, so I'm really curious to learn more about how can people get more and better opportunities and we can look at it from different angles why don't we first go for some quick wins? Because there are people who may need to get a job within two or three months. Probably something happened and they are on the job market. They need to get a better job rather quickly. So, based on your experience, what are some quick wins that people can take advantage of?

Speaker 2: 0:48

So I think three months is quite a short time time. So you need to be looking at what can have the most impact uh, really playing to your strengths and looking where you've got the um the most experience and the experience that you can really talk up. Looking at where your contacts are already and where you've got kind of warm leads that you can follow up with. Um, both of those are going to be absolutely crucial. Um, you know, in three months you don't have time for the other things that I would be talking about. You know, if we were saying it's a year, it's two years, I want to get a, a more senior role or a role in a, in a, you know, faster growth company or whatever it is, then we'd be looking at um longer term things around uh, around training, around getting feedback, working on the feedback that you're getting.

Speaker 2: 1:36

But I think, if you've got three months, what are your key strengths? What's your usp? Really focus that down. Um, if there are roles that you've done before, what other similar roles are out there? Um, because when you're going out and and looking for a job, what you want to be doing is you want to be making it as easy as possible for somebody to hire you and therefore, the the better fit that you are with what they're looking for, then you know, the more likely it is you're going to get something in three months. Um, and really leveraging that warm network, because we know that um, you know statistics, exact statistics, slightly debatable because the research that this um came from, uh, I think is not, you know, perhaps the most robust, but in general I think we're saying that around 75 of jobs are going through networks.

Speaker 1: 2:24

So really leveraging those, those contacts, um heavily and not being embarrassed to do it well, that's, that's a lot 75% and we are going to talk about the hidden job market, as some people label it, in a while. But you also make a very good point with regards to making it easy for the employer to hire you as a candidate. So before someone is hired, they also. They also need to be found right on linkedin or elsewhere. So what is the best way for someone to actually increase the visibility, to make it easy to be found on social media or on the internet?

Speaker 2: 3:04

so I was thinking, you know, you're an amazing example of this because you have really niched down. Uh, you're not talking about recruitment generally, you're talking about it recruitment. So we, if we used you as a case study, we would say, okay, well, he really really knows what his niche is. He's being pretty specific. So if you're looking for a job, I'm not saying, oh, I'll take any it job. No, I'll take, I'm looking for exactly this IT job that I exactly have experience in. Um, you know, here we're not talking about career change. We're talking about, if you want to get a job as quickly as possible, that it's going to be easiest to do something that is similar. It's going to be easiest to do something where the people who are looking at you have real clarity over what the skill set and strengths that you offer are. So niching down, I think, is really important and clarity of message around what your niche is. Once you, once you have that clarity, you then want to think about who you want to connect with and where those people are hanging out. So LinkedIn is, you know, the best social network, social business network. I mean, it's the only, it's the only one that has a, that has a, you know, an almost universal reach across the professional working population and it's such an easy place to be connecting with people and putting out thought leadership. You don't need to be doing it you, you know, five times a day. But some really well thought out comments perhaps on what's happening in your industry, beginning to engage also with recruiters, with hiring managers, but with senior executives, also with colleagues across your industry, just begins to position you as a um, an expert voice in your niche. And and you know, I think that's a great place to start.

Speaker 2: 4:55

I think in conferences I'm always saying to my clients you know, we have we, we absolutely know that it's people who self-promote. You know this is really well proven by research people, um, the people who self-promote most effectively are the people who get promoted and earn more money. So if you want to get seen and you want to get you know those kind of more senior or more lucrative positions, then I think getting out and being visible is just absolutely crucial. So, speaking at conferences being on LinkedIn, you know next level could be going podcasts. You could be at conferences being on linkedin, you know next level could be going podcast. You could be um.

Speaker 2: 5:34

Increasingly as you get more visible, you then. So I, for example, have had a magazine column. I've had two magazine columns in the past, um, gone on lots of podcasts and then, of course, because people have seen my name, they think, oh, we need someone to comment on, uh, leadership and careers. Okay, well, I've seen this woman five times before, so let's ask her to come and comment on this current news story, for example, and then suddenly you're on Bloomberg or you're on the news. So just really being quite vocal and not being embarrassed to be vocal where we're living in, this time now, where it's so easy to become a thought leader, as long as you have clarity over what you're trying to say and something interesting to say, it's easy.

Speaker 1: 6:19

It's kind of interesting how you enumerate all these activities to post on LinkedIn and arrange podcasts and they go for conferences. But some people may be a bit embarrassed, as you just also kind of mentioned, right, they may not want to promote themselves because it kind of doesn't feel right for a lot of people out there. So what is your best advice to people who are sitting there? They know that they should go a bit public, but don't feel secure enough yet yeah, I mean, look, it's really common and it's partly personality based.

Speaker 2: 6:57

So people who are more introverted, who have lower, um lower kind of levels of of, uh, comfort with social engagement, won't want to put themselves out there as much. Some people are much more private, some people are more public. It's really normal, um. So it's partly personality, it's partly cultural. So, um, it's really noticeable that there are different cultural norms around self-promotion. So, for example, in the UK we're very, uh, not self-promotional. In the US, um, people would tend to be more comfortable with it. It's just something that's done a lot more.

Speaker 2: 7:31

The problem is we're pretty much operating in a global job market and particularly at more senior levels, um, you, you can't really rely on cultural norms to save you from having to promote yourself. The way that I'm talking about it is really about becoming a thought leader in your industry. You don't have to be a thought leader to be really successful. It just helps, um, but, uh, you can be a thought leader on a more private scale. You don't have to be on the news or be having a podcast. Um, I, nevertheless I think there is a necessity if you want to be seen, if you want to be that person who gets promoted and I've got countless examples of plants, even in the last six months who where? The people who are getting promoted, the people who are getting the good jobs, people who are um, those are the people who are being talked about either at the recruitment or the promotion table and it's too difficult for the organization at a basic level, it's too difficult for the organization to say, no, we're not going to promote this person or no, we're not going to hire this person. Like, they need to have them. Why do they need to have them? They're really good at their job, yes, but lots of other candidates will be good at their job. We like them, yes, great, they're a cultural fit, but lots of people will be a cultural fit. No-transcript self-promotion, so that you're able to say, well, all I'm doing here is really sharing my knowledge, and that should make it feel much more possible and and does make it feel more possible for my clients. So, in that regard, that's why I really like LinkedIn. If it's too scary to post or too onerous, start just start commenting on people who are writing things about your industry and begin having that dialogue.

Speaker 2: 9:40

Um, in on social media. I talk about this in my book. I've got a whole chapter on networking and, um, uh, my book. Actually I wrote it quite a long time. I wrote it in 2016. It was specifically aimed at women as my clients have become more senior. Unfortunately, you know, predominantly my clients are men now, so but this applies to everybody, not just women, although my book is about women.

Speaker 2: 10:06

With networking, we really want to be kind of trying to reach a reach broader, and there's a section on my in my in my book, in the networking section around social networks and what we interviewed. We interviewed lots of well known people in the book, but some of the people interviewed were the most, very, very most senior people at all the social networks, and what they all said universally was, um, that social networks operate in sort of pods, pods of interest. You don't need to have a million people watching your videos on youtube. You just need this pod of really engaged, like-minded people in your sector who are engaging with what you're saying. And you can do that in quite a low key, not too scary way, I think, by speaking at conferences, by asking good questions on LinkedIn, by striking up a dialogue with people who are just in your, in your area, so it's less about projecting yourself as a personality and it's more just about sharing your knowledge, and hopefully that makes it feel easier definitely.

Speaker 1: 11:10

I mean, this is a great advice because from my experience, a lot of people are kind of insecure to post photos from their personal life, like what they eat. You know, they may kind of look down at this kind of activity because they are in the professional world. But showcasing the the experience makes makes a lot of sense and it could be an easy, easy way to to start posting, um, but then what's? What's the next thing? Because, um, a lot of people may also wonder, like, do I really become a thought leader just by commenting on social media? Like there are lots of people who are commenting and they are not, uh, thought leaders on on anything. So how to go from just purely commenting on social media to being the thought leader? What? What does it even mean being a thought leader?

Speaker 2: 11:55

so. So in my mind I mean I don't really know what it means, but but I, but in my mind it means being somebody who has something new or interesting to say about a topic, and that topic can be a micro topic. So if we think about um, if you think about thought leaders, in any sphere, they tend to be quite narrow, focused on what they're talking about. So, um, you know, we gave the example, you were specifically talking about it recruitment, or aren't? You know, in my um, when I did have very big social media accounts, I was specifically talking about female leadership. Now I talk about leadership generally, but I'm specific about, I only work with leaders, um, and therefore everything I'm talking about is related to that. Um, I don't know someone like simon sinek.

Speaker 2: 12:46

He only talks about purpose he doesn't talk about anything else, he only talks about purpose. He, he doesn't talk about anything else, he only talks about purpose. He basically has one message, he just has an articulate way of talking about it, and then he just talks about it over and over and over again and so and I think that pretty much applies to anybody and then obviously you can have conversations around it, so you interview different people talking about different things around the topic, but your expertise is is very much specific. Um, so I, so I think that's what, what being a thought leader is, having something you're interesting to say. Um, do you need to do it in a very public way? No, will it be helpful increasingly? Yes, I think it will. Be so if I think about I don't know, I think about to a client I had this morning, I had a. I had a an 8 30 client this morning, just before this podcast um and I had a client on friday completely different industries.

Speaker 2: 13:42

One's in um start, one's an entrepreneur, startup funded uh startup entrepreneur. The other one's a lawyer? Um, both of them have recently um got uh kind of c? C suite but either partner or ceo roles and both of them have really gone out of their way um to make themselves visible in the industry. So with the example of the lawyer, he's a lawyer in a particular niche um he posts once a week on linkedin and he just reposts a news article about his specific area of interest with a little legal comment.

Speaker 2: 14:24

Um he also writes a client briefing newsletter for his organization, for his law firm, and that gets sent out quarterly to their clients and he circulates it around all of his internal contacts because he's a niche lawyer. Um he gets deal flow, he gets workflow from deal lawyers, so he circulates that around deal lawyers um. Every six months he'll make sure to go to a conference and either be on a panel or speak or even just ask some really good questions. So I think it can be it. Just it doesn't need to be this huge venture whereby you go and put your face on the front of a podcast thing on on iTunes.

Speaker 1: 15:06

It doesn't need to be that, but you do need to understand what you're an expert in and start talking about it and based on your experience now working with all of these people who are becoming thought leaders, do they often need help with that or are they kind of do you trigger this desire to become a thought leader and they just go out there and execute? Does it work this way?

Speaker 2: 15:29

it completely depends. So, yes, some people are depends. So, yes, some people are very, very comfortable with that. Some people are very private and not comfortable with that. But even the most private people, I would be encouraging them to do it in the safest way that they can. You know, I don't know. Go and be on a panel, so you know. Go to an industry networking event. There's lots of ways that you can do it. But, yes, some people naturally do it, some people don't. But those of us who don't naturally do it, um, need to just push ourselves a little bit, uh, just to just to kind of give, give you, otherwise other people have a competitive advantage that you don't.

Speaker 1: 16:26

That's easy for you to get interesting now one one thing that also resonated with me was, um, that becoming the thought leader could also help to be promoted, not just to get a job, and, um, probably not too many people realize this. Um. So, um, what are the ways to use this new role, new public visibility, to get the promotion? Do you suggest someone then goes to see managers and ask for promotion because they have 10,000 followers, or what's the trigger? How does it even happen?

Speaker 2: 17:02

Yeah. So that's a really good question. So the first thing I would say is, if you're employed, I would make sure that your organisation is comfortable with the way in which you're promoting your profile. You know, I wouldn't suggest that you go start you know, I don't know, start a podcast specifically talking about your organization without their permission. I don't think that's a good idea, um. But you know, there will be particularly perhaps older people in the organization who don't really understand what you're trying to do, um, but there will be people who do understand the value of what what you're trying to do, and you then become an asset for the organization. So the first thing is I would make sure they're pretty comfortable with what you're doing. Um, I would um make sure that I was doing things for the benefit of the organization as much as I was doing it for the benefit of myself, and those two things should really go hand in hand. So, in my example of this lawyer I'm working with, um, he uh, yeah, so he puts out things on LinkedIn. Obviously on LinkedIn, he's him, but he's also at this company. Um, so he puts out things on LinkedIn. Obviously on LinkedIn, he's him, but he's also at this company. He puts out these client newsletters.

Speaker 2: 18:06

So speak, going, speaking to marketing in your organization and asking them OK, you know, what are we doing for clients? Client education, what would be useful? Is there any content I could provide you with? Is there anything that would be useful for me to speak at? And often your, your internal marketing or PR department, or both, will be really, really helpful in that regard, and they'll just be so happy to have somebody who's willing to do do the things that they, that they need to be done, and and they will often come to you then with ideas for conference speaking or that sort of thing. I would.

Speaker 2: 18:42

I, you know, I really am a very, very firm believer in not only asking for feedback when you're having conversations with your boss or your manager, but also talking about your aspirations, talking about where you're going, and part of of that would naturally be, you know, I'm beginning to hit this leadership level. I want to get my voice out there. I think it will benefit you and the organization, because it will bring us more work, it will bring us more clients, it will raise the profile of our product, whatever it is. This is what I'd like to do, you know. Do you have any other suggestions? You're so great, so it's so. So is what I'd like to do. You know, do you have any other suggestions? You're so great, so it's so. So, you know, people like to hear flattery, but they also, um, like to understand what they're receiving, um, and so that's kind of the way I would play. It's absolutely possible to do it within an organization.

Speaker 1: 19:33

You just need to be, uh, clever about it, yeah and on this note, have you also seen managers or companies in general that are trying to stop the next thought leader to actually become the thought leader, because for some it could be also a bit intimidating because they would be afraid of losing the candidate once he or she becomes the thought leader? So have you seen some examples of the companies or top managers stopping the um, the, the person, from being so visible?

Speaker 2: 20:08

um, I I don't think I've ever had an organization say no, you absolutely can't do that, because generally, um organization, you know, generally organizations are pretty clear that if you're a, you know, if you're a, not everybody in an organization is going to be an A worker. Right, you've got to have some B workers in there as well. But if you are an A worker and by that I mean high performance, high potential person, then they want to keep you and they want to promote you because that is how their organization is going to grow and be successful and and with that in mind, when you start talking about what you want, they should support you absolutely. Yes, there are organizations who might not, but what? I? I haven't seen that as much at an organizational level. What I've seen more is managers or leaders who perhaps are quite old school and don't quite understand what you're trying to do and therefore find it, maybe you know, a bit distasteful or countercultural.

Speaker 2: 21:09

Um, that you are trying to engage in this self-promotion, and that's why I think the positioning of it is really important as something that's going to be of huge, you know, of huge benefit to the organization. Um, there absolutely will be competitor clients who have thought leaders within them, um, and so may, perhaps using those examples to show them why it's something that is that is really important. Um, you know, you can get these kind of I would call it an umbrella leader, and an umbrella leader is somebody who really doesn't want anyone within their team to shine because they want to take the glory, and those people will be very threatened by this, um, but they're going to be threatened also by just by you being very good. So, so, um, it may be at some point you're going to have to emerge out from underneath that umbrella leader, and you know being a thought leader is is one of the ways that you, that you can do that. So I would be pretty firm about what I wanted to do and be really asking for opportunities awesome, awesome.

Speaker 1: 22:07

And one thing you mentioned a while ago was the hidden job market, so um the opportunities that are um not published anywhere. So so how does this happen? How can someone take advantage of this?

Speaker 2: 22:22

so so the? So the first thing to do is to think about your network. Um, a lot of people come to me and say, oh well, I don't really have enough. You know, I've worked in this company, you know my whole career and I have no net. Well, that's probably actually not true. Um, if you look at, you know, linkedin again is a great place to start. Have a look, that sounds like I'm a, I'm working for linkedin, I'm not um, but you know it's a.

Speaker 2: 22:44

It's a great place to start go and map. I've got in my um. In my book I set out some kind of exercises of how to go about working your, your network. But generally people tend to fall into two camps with networking. Either you're what I would call you, so if we think about networking as like the analogy, as a garden, you've either got the spider, and the spider kind of pasts their net really really wide and is happy to kind of trap any anything in it, um, and just kind of see where it's it's gonna go. And that is a very, a very broad, far-reaching network, um, you know, which can bring a lot of rewards. Um, the other type of networker, um, which would tend to be the more introverted networker, um, often women can be more like this as well. There is a gender difference when we look at networking. That's really clear from the research as well.

Speaker 2: 23:35

Um would be the spider uh, I'm sorry, the bee, the queen bee, and what the queen bee is, um is that? Uh, is that they kind of build the hive around them and they've got these kind of a few bees around them who are really similar to them and they surround themselves with this really small network and quite reluctant to leave that small network, um, but the ties within that small network are very, very close. So you know it's somebody they can ring for anything and they can kind of make any ask of that person. Um, and they feel really close and and the truth is that it's actually that you really want to be both. You want to be, have aspects of the bee and aspects of the slider. So, um, if you and and the likelihood is that, as I'm talking about it, you will recognize one of those in yourself uh, lots of loose ties or a few very close ties. Um, if you're, uh, the spider with lots of loose ties, then great, you've got that kind of first stage covered.

Speaker 2: 24:35

You have this really, really broad network that you can begin to go out and start looking at what might be out there you know, shaking the tree and seeing what comes out in terms of the hidden job market. But what you then want to be doing is you want to be strategic and thinking, okay, well, who can I deepen my ties with? Who's going to really be bringing me the most opportunities, the most new connections? And, conversely, if you're a person with a few close connections, obviously start with them. But then you really need to be broadening out. So, can you be going to industry events? Can you be going to? You know, depending on the size of your company, are there internal networking events you can be going to? Um? Uh, you know other things that you could um be attending, you know? It's really interesting.

Speaker 2: 25:19

I think the most effective, the people who are most effective at using the hidden job market would tend to be the people who you might say something like you know, there's no work situation they couldn't make social and no social situation they couldn't make about work. Because those people are such natural networkers that everywhere they go they're thinking about the connection and they're kind of not embarrassed to do that. And the people who are best accessing the hidden job market are like that. And we we all, if we want to do that need to push ourselves to do that. So, first of all, what is your network? Go as broad as possible, um. Next, begin to contact those people, and that's where a lot of people you know we talked about people feeling embarrassed to become a thought leader. People can feel very embarrassed to access their network, um, but that's uh, you know, a very intrinsic part of career progression and development is networking, and people generally do accept that, and what I always would encourage people to do is put yourself in their shoes.

Speaker 2: 26:22

So if you were receiving this email, or this text message, or whatever it is, or this message on LinkedIn, how would you feel? And that most people think well, you know, I'd feel flattered, wouldn't I? I'd be, you know, or if I was really busy, I'd ignore them, but otherwise I'd probably feel quite flattered, and they're probably going to feel the same way as you. You know they're not going to receive this email asking for a coffee and think you know the upstart. How could they say no, of course not. They're going to think, well, yeah, sure, I'll meet them for a coffee, or actually, no, I'm too busy I won't. But why don't they meet this guy who might be able to help them?

Speaker 2: 27:02

So I think, number one, identify your network. Number two, make the ask and don't be embarrassed to make it. Um, and then you're trying to leave every conversation. I'm always suggesting to people enter the conversation as broadly as possible. You know, I'm looking for my next career move. I really admire what you've done. Again, flattery works really, really well. Um, really admire what you've done. I'd love to get your advice about who you think I should talk to and then leave the conversation always with two or three more people to talk to the snowball effect, proven networking style, effective networking style, um. So that's, that's kind of accessing that aspect of the hidden job market.

Speaker 2: 27:42

Um, I think another under-recognized. You know, obviously there's recruitment conversations and I would be nurturing those recruiters who are very good in your industry. There will be very good recruiters and there will be less good recruiters. Um, the less good recruiters are the people who are just pulling the cv that they can fit most easily to the, to the spec um. But there are really good recruiters who do take a genuine interest in candidates and will be really invested in finding you a great role, because they know that then you're the next leader, you're going to use them, you're going to you know so so.

Speaker 2: 28:17

So find those recruiters. They will be out there in your niche and nurture your relationship with them, because they either will have opportunities that won't be public or, you know, very likely, and or might have really good, really good connections with recruiters in your preferred, favorite dream organization, and so I think that's the kind of third part of the hidden job market that I would be talking to people about, which is what are your, what's your dream job? You know, if you said I could work at any organization doing anything, what would it be? Okay? Well, how can you start to get in front of that organization? Um, and that's another aspect of the hidden job market where it's probably the least fruitful, as in you might make direct applications or try to have direct conversations with 10 companies that you love, and maybe you're only going to be successful at connecting with two of them.

Speaker 2: 29:22

Clients, contact organizations, either find a connection somehow or, you know, in one case, completely out of the blue, and get jobs there when there were not jobs advertised, because the passion that they exhibited for that company, um, was such, and they were really clear about their strengths and what they had to offer, um, that the organization just couldn't again, couldn't say no to them, um, so, so I think being, you know, at the end of the day, getting recruited, it's a bit like going on a date, isn't it? You want this organization to believe that you really, really want to work there, and so if you genuinely, really, really want to work there, that's a great start yeah, awesome.

Speaker 1: 29:56

Well, the process seems to be very, very straightforward, like you explained very well, and I guess there are some people who are now listening to this and they are pulling their hair a bit because they are like, oh my god, this sounds like so much work and I have already so much on my plate. So so how to go a bit more strategic with regards to the outreach, because you mentioned the wide net right, or to build the net wider, but who to connect with? You mentioned a few companies, for example, who you know, the companies that could be a great target for the employment, but then who to connect with? Should it be the CEO or a CTO or a VP of human resources? Like how to think about the ideal person to connect with.

Speaker 2: 30:48

I mean, look, it depends what your role is, but I would suggest not human resources. If possible, I would suggest that you're wanting to be connecting with the decision makers as much as you can, so maybe CTO If you've got something interesting to offer someone, that you're wanting to be connecting with the decision makers as much as you can, so maybe cto um, if you've got something interesting to offer someone, I think that's always a great place to start and the likelihood is, if you have a niche, um, you probably have some interesting you know information or intelligence to offer them.

Speaker 2: 31:14

Um, perhaps you've connected with them before and you can remember something personal about them. That also really works. And again, flattery, like I said, really really works as well. Um, so you know, when I'm thinking about things you might have to offer them. It might be knowledge, it might be, um, I don't know, a really interesting project you've worked on that has an aspect that might be relevant to them. It might be that you're much younger than them and you really know about social media and that's relevant to what they do. So finding where you can finding that point of connection would be really, really useful.

Speaker 2: 31:49

The best networkers are the people who and sadly I'm not really like this, but the best networkers are the people who are really good at remembering facts about people, small facts, because if you remember that I don't know somebody's child had a gymnastics competition last time you saw them, that immediately is going to draw you to them and make that connection. It then becomes much more difficult for them not to continue that conversation with you. Um. So you know, I think having limited time is absolutely fine. It doesn't mean you can't do this stuff. In fact and I've got a copy of my book here, um, but you won't be able to read it because it'll be back to front, but it is a confident success and your stellar career in 10 minutes a day. So, um, the reason why it's 10 minutes a day is, um, that there is really really good evidence that if you just spent 10 minutes a day on career behaviors which I think is what we're talking about, as opposed to doing your day job the reward or the career benefit that you will reap is as if you had done 10 times that amount of work. So 10 minutes a day, or, let's say, an hour across the week, of doing this stuff, is going to just reap absolutely huge rewards, obviously, and people should be doing that, I really believe, throughout their career.

Speaker 2: 33:08

You know, 10, 10 minutes a day, 50 minutes a week, maybe that's one coffee and one LinkedIn article, especially when you've got chat GP that can like do your first draft. So it's not huge amounts, but if we're doing it regularly, it really is going to build up and at top. But, however, at times of job hunt you suddenly do need to be investing more time than that, and that's when you'll need to find that kind of additional connection time. But again, how much um you know the 30 minutes of the least productive time of your day, how much work you actually doing? Could you transition that into? Okay, that's the time I connect with people for example, also 10 minutes a day.

Speaker 1: 33:53

That's totally doable, so it's it's great that you clarify this for people who are pulling to pulling their hair, so it's totally doable, definitely, um and um. Also. Now I'm kind of thinking once they connect um, they um position themselves as candidates right away. Or do they, uh, do they try to help the ceo they are connecting with? Like what, what is the, the message they send? Or like they don't want to be seen as desperate candidates right um? So how to position themselves as a potential candidate, but not to mention that they are a candidate right now? Like how to find the balance, in other words, yeah, look again.

Speaker 2: 34:35

I think it's quite nuanced this. So it depends who you're speaking to, um, I mean, if you're speaking to the cto of your dream organization and you really need to find another job, you probably should just tell them that you're looking for and they're your dream organization and you would really like a job there.

Speaker 2: 34:58

I don't think that is desperate, especially if you come across in a way that showcases your strengths and why you would be a good hire for the organisation. I don't, I don't, I don't, you know, I don't think that playing hard to get is the right strategy in a in a job conversation, at some stage of a career conversation it might be so at the point where you've got the offer and you're negotiating the salary, that might be the point to say well, actually, you know, I'm actually in conversations with three people, fine. But I think that initial connection point isn't we don't always need to play hard to get, and I don't think there's any evidence that if you show enthusiasm for an organisation or a role that you are less likely to get it than if you show disinterest. I mean, it's the opposite through all my years of coaching that going into the conversation um with enthusiasm and flattery is much more effective than with kind of withdrawal and disdain, um. So I think if you really want a job, then I think it's fine to position it like that if it's more of a kind of networking conversation and building the ground over the next couple of years I might want to move and this is one of the organizations I'm interested in connecting with or this person just has a great network. I really admire them. I think you're going to need to make some kind of an ask. If it's a close contact, if it's a family friend, it's some somebody you've previously worked for, then in those cases cases you can just make a non, non-ask uh connection. You know it would be great to catch up, that's absolutely hot. But if it is somebody with whom the connection is tenuous, you're going to have to make some kind of an ask because people are busy, like you said, people are worried about whether they're going to have time to connect. Well, if you're the ceo, you've got even less time, so the ask is going to have to be specific so that they know how they can help you.

Speaker 2: 37:05

Example um. I've got a client currently who's been in a very senior role, um, and now is looking to move into headhunting um. So she wants to become a headhunter and um, what she um? What she did was she connected with various people connected with headhunters that she had used before um, and one of the people she also was connected with um, the uh ceo of a big headhunter. Um, through another connection she was very clear I'm, I'm, you know, I've, I've done this senior role. Uh, you know, these are my strengths I'm. I've been having some conversations. I'm really interested in moving into headhunting. Um, you know, I I'm really, I'd be really interested in having a conversation with you.

Speaker 2: 37:55

That person was too busy. That ceo of this huge global headhunter was too busy. But what she did was she flicked on the email to say, okay, these are the people in my organization you need to have a conversation with I'm copying them all in you need to have a conversation with this person who's the head of this headhunting department, this person who's out of this head hunting department and our head recruiter. There you go, please have a conversation with her. So if she hadn't made the ask and just said, hi, I'm me, you know, that wouldn't have happened. So I think if you want something in return, you do have to get a little bit brave and make the ask, but I think the way that you frame the ask can be gentle and exploratory. It doesn't need to be desperate awesome.

Speaker 1: 38:40

Well, this, this was a very nice, very nice example and a great advice, and you also showed us, uh, the book um a while ago. Would you like to tell the audience a bit more about the book? Who is it for and what can they find inside?

Speaker 2: 38:52

yeah, sure. So I'm not sure how relevant it will be to your audience, but it, um, it came out in 2016 with Penguin. It's called Step Up Confident Success in your Stellar Career in 10 Minutes a Day, and it was specifically aimed at women.

Speaker 2: 39:05

I was doing a lot of work I've always done a lot of work across all kinds of leadership but I was doing quite a lot of work in female leadership for organizations at the time and I just wanted a book that kind of reflected what I was saying, which is essentially, here are all the career behaviors that everybody should be doing. Do them. So it covers what I would say are the kind of 10 core things that you would want to be doing in your career. Like define examples, define what success means to you, because then you've got really clear parameters whether you're being successful or not. Um, understand your motivations and values, grow your network, grow your confidence uh, you know, be better at self-promotion.

Speaker 2: 39:45

Um, understand your personal leadership style. And then it's got kind of exercises in it um, not applicable to everybody, because obviously it was, um, although I think the advice in it is applicable to everyone. It was kind of specifically framed around women. Um, I am in the process of writing another book at the moment, which would be broader, but, um, I don't know. That's probably another year or two in the making it's quite time consuming to write a book awesome, awesome.

Speaker 1: 40:12

Well, I think, based on what you said, it's definitely applicable also to this audience, because who doesn't need to um get um better career opportunities in the near future? Right, awesome? And where can people um connect with you or find you? On social media or website sure.

Speaker 2: 40:28

So my name is finella may. All fine, you can connect with me on linkedin, um. I've got two websites um. Fanellacom is my personal coaching website kind of you know my profile and then I've got a corporate coaching site where I do a lot. You know. Vast majority of my work with organizations and that's my business is called Uprising Human Capital and I do quite a lot of the coaching. I do one-to-one coaching, two-to-one kind of conflict resolution coaching, and um team coaching, leadership teams, um, and I've got a kind of network of coaches who also work for me in that business awesome, wonderful, well, thanks, thanks for uh for joining and sharing your, your insights uh with with the audience.

Speaker 1: 41:11

Thanks a a lot.

Speaker 2: 41:12

Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1: 41:14

Thank you, have a wonderful day.

Speaker 2: 41:15

You too.

Speaker 1: 41:17

Cool, so that was great. Where is this button here? Stop recording.